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Liebe Fachkräfte der Kinder- und Jugendhilfe, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen,. das SFBB hat den Seminarbetrieb unter dem größtmöglichen Schutz der. Anschrift. Sozialpädagogisches Fortbildungsinstitut Berlin-Brandenburg (SFBB) Königstr. 36 B Berlin Tel.: / Fax: / Das Sozialpädagogische Fortbildungsinstitut Berlin-Brandenburg (SFBB) ist eine nachgeordnete Einrichtung der Senatsverwaltung für Bildung, Jugend und. Ort: Jagdschloss Glienicke (SFBB) Kosten: 8,00 € Anmeldung: lieder.nl-​lieder.nl / Standort des SFBB ist das Jagdschloss Glienicke in Berlin Wannsee, nahe der Glienicker Brücke - geografisch mitten in Brandenburg gelegen. Freie Kapazitäten.

Sfbb Berlin

Das Sozialpädagogische Fortbildungsinstitut Berlin-Brandenburg (SFBB) ist eine nachgeordnete Einrichtung der Senatsverwaltung für Bildung, Jugend und. Liebe Fachkräfte der Kinder- und Jugendhilfe, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen,. das SFBB hat den Seminarbetrieb unter dem größtmöglichen Schutz der. Infos zu Sozialpädagogisches Fortbildungsinstitut Berlin-Brandenburg (SFBB) ✓ Kontaktdaten ✓ Aktuelle Ausschreibungen ✓ Vergebene Aufträge. Neben klassischen Inputs können 2 Leute diesem Wege auch Beratungsangebote, Gruppendiskussionen, Praxisbegleitungen, kreative Erprobungen und vieles mehr zielgruppenorientiert stattfinden. Kontakt Impressum Datenschutzerklärung. Navigiere direkt zu: Navigation. Gemeinsame Einrichtungen Gemeinsame Gerichte. Daten und Fakten Regionalmonitoring. Anreise INA. Was gibt es alles auf und im Wasser zu erleben? Inhouse-Angebote Die mit uns geplanten Inhouse-Angebote sollen nach Möglichkeit und unter Berücksichtigung Telefon 0203 genannten Hygieneregelungen stattfinden. Termin: Wirtschaft und Verkehr. Um Einrichtungen der Jugendarbeit hierbei zu unterstützen, bietet Fokus Medienbildung auch explizite Unterstützungs- und Kreativangebote in diesem Bereich an. Email: doreen. Anreise wannseeForum zum Anreise Planer Link geht zu www. JuliDer Anmeldeschluss Spielsucht Hilfe Wesel die Tagung ist der Auch hier kann Em Qualifikation Gruppe H je nach örtlicher Gegebenheit die Zahl der Teilnehmenden reduzieren. There are indeed 34 references to "Technical Univerisity of Berlin" but most of them are from the last century and the newest is from short after the implementation of the policy. A new move proposal, expertly crafted Mare Taxi Kiel to prove Technische Universität Berlin 's commonality over Technical University of Berlinlooks as if it might have Online Dating Test reasonable chance of success. Having said that, I also Sfbb Berlin it would be far better to open a new RM rather than reopen the old one. San Francisco Bay Blades. Furthermore, if you take a look at the QS ranking, you will observe that for Dragon Blood Vapor Jack universities from non Pascalsches Dreieck Fibonacci countris, it indeed uses as translation, and it Proownez refrains from it, in the cases where Casino Girl explicitly state that their official name should not be transalted into English e. Comes to precisely Spielsucht Hilfe Wesel same thing. Andrewa talk3 September UTC As you wish: BIT no result TUB both forms Note also that at the website of the university, except in the impressums, there are no official Cops N Robbers Online presenting the university using BIT, contrary to what one would expect for a common international name. It didn't work out as I was hoping. That's one good reason Wikipedia is not a democracy. Since that dat the number of mentions is minimal and neglectable compared with the mentions in Britain.

My only concern is to make BIT into the side note that it actually is. It was a nice idea at the time it was invented, did not catch on and probably also diminished the long established brand of "TU-Berlin".

I was surprised at the small role that "technical university" has in the google trend pictures, so please take that into account when deciding on moving the article.

All of them prefer the german variant, also, in the international context. If you look around the other TU wiki articles you'll find the german writing already.

That being said, even on wikipedia the german variant is accepted as common name. Only the TU-Berlin article community is having a hard time realizing that So it has to be an admin that has to do the move, and in the event of a move back to "technical university", also the merging of the talk pages.

As you can see, Andrewa an admin changed his opinion from 3 years ago, but is unsure of the correct decision.

And as I tried to document, there is no correct decision based on "common name in the english speaking world", the majority of the cited google hits can be suspected to originate in Germany, mostly in publications by members of the TU-Berlin, creating a hard-to-untangle bias.

There is a history of using "technical university", but no indication on actual current usage. Both of them, on both their web search and maps pages, brought up "Technical University of Berlin" or "Technical University Berlin" as headlines on the right-hand side of the page and as map location identifiers.

What does the google-trend picture show from your location? Any search locations outside Germany? However, people that search for TU Berlin mainly come from germany.

My opinion remains that no case was made for the earlier move, but that a case has been made now and perhaps that's because important things have changed in the past three years, or perhaps it's just that the research has been more thorough this time, n'import.

I also believe that Technische Universität Berlin is the best target, but that failing that Technical University of Berlin would be an improvement on the current name.

How you can get unsure out of that escapes me. And yes, I'm an admin, but not an uninvolved one so I won't be closing this RM anyway.

There are several others watching WP:RM, fortunately. Or being clumsy in my summary of your point of view. You did change your opinion from "no point in moving" to "moving is appropriate".

And as with anybody else, there is no clear direction if the german or the english name is the better target. The recent discussion just has more participants, the arguments against BIT are the same as in and even in But I'm also asking myself, what does any of it matter?

The relevant thing is just, on the evidence now before us, what's the best article title? Let's focus on that. We seem to have consensus above that the article should be moved somewhere, and I think we have a rough consensus on the destination too.

The question of non-admin closure which you raised above is similarly irrelevant. This is sufficiently controversial to require admin closure even if there were no protection in place.

As I see it, the argument pro "technical" is the historical precedent and one sighting on google-maps there surely are others, only hard to find for me due to the helpfulness of google.

The argument pro "technische" is the recent consensus on re naming of some of the other "Technische Universitäten" here on en-wiki and the official corporate image of the TU-Berlin.

Now, we all agree that this move to BIT was a bad call anyways. So, we should not run in circles here. I also have the feeling, that the wikipedia naming affects the common use, e.

This may lead to more and more wrong translations and namings. Choosing "Technische Universität Berlin" is in many ways a good idea! It is a the official proper and correct naming.

Arguably, it is the most often english used name. Since there are no other problems with the german variant, I really think we may have a naming candidate for a long-lasting wiki article name.

I only suspected and always asked for confirmation if it was a bad translation, but it took a long time for the first competent refutation.

MIT and CalTech were given ans examples that "institute of technology" is a valid name for a full university, with the problem remaining that it has no tradition in Germany outside Karlsruhe and an "Institut" usually is a part of a faculty, i.

There no longer are "Fachhochschulen", for some reason they dropped the "Fach". If someone wants to convey a lesser level of scholarship or less complete breadth of education, they would use the phrase "Technical College" or "Technical School" rather than "Technical University".

Anything called a "university" is generally understood to have a complete educational program and a high degree of scholarly status.

To me, the term "Technical University" simply implies a scholarly university that focuses particularly on technology.

Google and Bing both translate "Technische" as "Technical". It lays the most weight on a uni-form wikipedia naming. It also says, that we should respect the official english naming claim of the university.

The link also refers to technical but since a technical university is a german thing as far as I know there is no way of having a uniform naming while using "technical" OR "technische".

Being stuck between technische and technical again, I would weight the official naming claim as the most important reason to go for the german variant, since we're also stuck arguing what is the most common english name.

I also think that, everybody and I mean everybody who reads "Technische Universität Berlin" does know about which university in the world we're talking about.

Not because it's such a famous university but because it's straight forward to figure it out. It's not linked to from WP:AT as it should be if it were in force.

And it's rather strangely phrased, quite out of step with other Wikipedia naming conventions. It needs both work and discussion before it will be of any use to us here, IMO.

Andrewa talk , 19 November UTC If the translation of technische to technical is correct, I have to quote this though: "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.

I also looked up, that there are "Technical Universities" in the Netherlands etc. Again, not relevant I'm afraid.

Well then, in that case we have to look at the goals that we should achieve by choosing a fitting article name. In that case I would again prefer the german variant!

That was the original proposal, and the evidence points to that move, and the policy points to it too, and there seems to be a rough consensus on both of those last two points.

I'm guessing that the main reason that this RM is languishing in the backlog is that we've given any potential closing admin a daunting job in sorting out the relevant points above.

It got off to a bad start, the proposer is a newbie with no talk or user page and only three contributions all concerning this article, although I suspect they may have other anonymous contributions and the proposal didn't focus on the relevant points, and we've never really recovered from that.

I chose to vote and then later to comment because I was hoping that this would make it easier for another admin to see a consensus.

It didn't work out as I was hoping. Andrewa talk , 19 November UTC The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page.

No further edits should be made to this discussion. Slavish translation is never the best way. The original name is often seen probably most often seen in English-language sources.

WP:UE says that we should follow usage in English language reliable sources. All queries enclosed in quotes for exact matches. A google search of the two terms prefixed with site:bbc.

So I'm inclined to think "Technical University" is the prevailing form used in RS unless someone wants to present some compelling evidence to the contrary.

Colin M talk , 22 May UTC Weak oppose : The same idea was proposed in [ and] and , and I have seen no new evidence to indicate that the common name in English sources is different from the current Wikipedia article title.

This RM has been open for a long enough discussion period, and no new momentum has appeared. In fact, many English speakers would have a hard time remembering or figuring out how to type "Technische Universität".

Providing an unexplained link to some self-published PDF file written completely in German is not helpful to making this decision.

Please also see my prior comments from I don't think we need to keep discussing this over and over, so I struck out the "Weak" from my "Weak oppose".

Thus the situation before was different. The argument is: Technical University of Berlin is not the official name and must not be used by people employed by TU Berlin.

Wikipedia aspires to be written from an independent perspective. It is not intended to present the point of view of the promoters of the topics it discusses, and the English Wikipedia prefers to consider independent sources that are written in English when determining article titles.

It is however unclear to me, why an independent more or less objective journalist would use an unofficial name. For the articles after , I am not sure if the official name was intentionally not used or if that happened accidentally.

I suspect that the journalist did not intend to change the name of the university. If I would ask the NYT journalists… would that help to convince you?

The words "universität" and "technische" do not exist in English, so most readers would not immediately understand what they mean.

And the readers who do have some idea of what the words mean might wonder why the author switched to German in the middle of a sentence instead of translating those words.

The words seem pretty simple to translate into English, and it is very common to translate words that are part of the name of an institution when talking about a topic in a different language.

As far as I remember the discussion in TU Berlin in the rationality of not allowing university member to use "technical" as a translation of "Technische" was this was regarded as misleading.

For larger entities such as Volkswagen keeping the original name seems to be accepted. English-language reliable sources refer to the company as "Volkswagen" not as "People's Car" , so that's what we call the article.

We can speculate about the reasons why certain foreign names are translated in RS, and others are left alone, but it's not really our place to judge the 'correctness' of these decisions.

Abbreviations can also have an informal tone that may be considered unencyclopedic. The proposal would move the page to the actual name of the subject.

Citing the print communications standards document published by the school is near meaningless. A school or other institution can be obsessed with how their name is used in print.

A friend astonished me with how particular UT Austin was, requiring "The University of Texas at Austin" with absolutely no deviations and some strange formatting requirements too.

A mass rename would have to be proposed. This isn't that. The university has, in my view, an odd policy on the translation of its name into English.

I see no reason not to retain the current direct word-for-word translation for this article. It is the clearest and most obvious approach, I would say.

In the past, some users have argued that English sources would prefer the free translation "Technical University of Berlin", but a quick check at BBC website shows that it is highly inconsistent as all English translations are simply free translations and no one should be preferred over others , including: - Technische Universität Berlin - Technical University of Berlin - Berlin Technical University - TU-Berlin The QS university ranking also uses the name Technische Universität Berlin.

So the argument "Technical University of Berlin" is the most common name does not seem to apply. Swaziland is called Eswatini.

Alma-ata is called Almaty, Bombay is called Mumbai, etc. Wikipedia has a policy of using the most widely recognized name in the language, but, when many possible names seem to be used, it normally respects official names, especially when coutries or institutions are making efforts to get rid of names they do not approve.

I know this issue has been discussed in the past and many of you consider the issue to be settled and will resort to the same old arguments, but until the university is referred to by its actual name, you will keep seeing this request over and over, as the university and its community students and employees will keep making efforts not only in wikipedia, but everywhere for the university being called by its name same way as KU Leuven, ETH Zürich or Mines ParisTech, among many others.

I'm not seeing any actual evidence being presented that "Technische Universität Berlin" is the most common name used in reliable English language sources.

Rreagan talk , 20 May UTC The results in reliable English language sources are mixed and not only between the actual name in German but it does not matter and a translation, but among many different possible English translations.

And the use of the actual name, given the enforcement by the university, has gained significant momentum during the last lustrum. I would always go with the native name unless an English translation is exceptionally better-known in English-language sources.

That isn't the case here. That we use the title most often used in reliable English-language sources? I think you'll find it's exactly the standard we're supposed to be using.

WP:UE certainly does not say we should translate everything into English, although many seem to misinterpret it that way.

This Wikipedia mania for translating everything into English because native English-speakers and I am one, incidentally are too fick to unnerstand furrin has got to stop.

It's not policy and it makes WP look ignorant. But "always go[ing] with the native name unless an English translation is exceptionally better-known in English-language sources" is not the standard.

Comes to precisely the same thing. Unless there is a common English-language translation that is used more often in reliable English-language sources than the native name we should use the native name.

What we shouldn't do is use an English translation just because there is one. And I agree we shouldn't just use an English translation just because there is one, because there almost always is an English translation of anything.

But your position seems to be that we should generally default to the non-English name, while I think our policies say that we should tend to default to the English name.

Rreagan talk , 31 May UTC Oppose, per previous discussions : The same suggestion was considered in the RMs of , , , and , and I continue to see no indication that the common name in independent reliable English-language sources is clearly different from the current Wikipedia article title.

The words "technische" and "universität" don't exist in English and are hard to remember and hard to type for readers of English.

It is very common to translate words that are part of the name of an institution when writing in a different language, and those two words seem easy to translate.

The current title also abbreviates very nicely as "TU Berlin". Google Ngram seems to show the current name as more common than the proposed one in English-language books.

The nominator said they checked some British newspapers and found very mixed results. If the independent reliable English-language sources are very mixed, we should lean toward using English, not German.

And Google Ngram doesn't show the British English corpus favouring the German form either, and most readers of English are not British.

When I type "Technische Universität Berlin" into Bing from an IP address within the US , on both the web search and maps pages, it brings up "Technical University of Berlin" as the headline on the right-hand side of the page.

On Google, the similar panel is titled "Berlin Institute of Technology" which I do not suggest using. I see no reason to continue to repeat this discussion with no real change in the circumstances.

That is no longer the case. Second, the fact that "Technische" or "Universität" are not English words does not matter, as it is a proper name. Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft are also not English words and it is still the name of the institution and of the Wikipedia article , the Bundestag could easily be translated as the Federal Diet Following this line of thought, one could argue that Cristiano Ronaldo should be called Christian Ronald both "Cristiano" and "Ronaldo" are not English words and both seem easy to translate into English and the Portuguese words are hard to remember and hard to type for English speakers.

Third, searching books is missleading as older sources tend to bias the amount of results it cannot be argued that Mumbai should be called Bombay, because a majority of old books call it that way.

Fourth, if the results are mixed, we should not lean towards English or German, we should lead towards the actual name akin to cases of Nur Sultan, Mumbai, or Eswatini, among many others.

Fifth, if one uses google or bing, and is led to "Technical University of Berlin", it is due to a large extent that the wikipedia page is called that way.

So this argument is tautological. Sixth, according to previous discussions the use of translations instead of the university's name was predominant in the past.

It does not longer seem to be the case, which is due to the effort by the university indicating that the use of translations is not acceptable and I've got to stress this: it is not that the university "prefers" the German name, as claimed in the argument; the university does not accept translations.

Because of the former, it is hard to argument that there has been no change in the circumstances and keep referring to old discussions.

Every day the use of the university's actual name gains momentum as it is enforced by the university. SFBB talk , 21 May UTC There is no evidence that the obscure statement "Der Name 'Technische Universität Berlin' wird nicht ins Englische übersetzt", written in German on a subpage of the university website, is having any effect on how independent reliable sources refer to the university in English.

Of the two that used the German version, at least one of them did not seem to be written by the newspaper itself.

The Times Higher Education site published by The Times uses " Technical University of Berlin " for its page about the university and its entry in the list of top German universities.

News , a well-known U. It's not even clear to me whether the statement " Der Name 'Technische Universität Berlin' wird nicht ins Englische übersetzt " is merely intended as a description of what the university does on its own website or is intended to discourage other people from using translations as well.

That page just seems to be about what are the practices that the university uses for its website and how to write its mailing address, not about general policies of how people should refer to the university.

I have also found publications by professors of the university that use "Technical University of Berlin" to describe their affiliation.

If they are trying to influence the outside world, they don't seem to be succeeding. And Munich isn't called München on Wikipedia.

There are indeed 34 references to "Technical Univerisity of Berlin" but most of them are from the last century and the newest is from short after the implementation of the policy.

There are only two references to "Technische Universität Berlin", but one of them is the most recent reference I checked and both are indeed published by the newspaper it's just a subsection.

Boston Globe has only one reference to the university and WSJ has zero. It only shows that the university does not play a major role in the US, and that is not an argument to go for outdated references i.

Again THE is American where the university plays a much smaller role , while QS is British, where the university is better-known and consequentielly the change in its naming policy is more likely to be known.

Furthermore, if you take a look at the QS ranking, you will observe that for most universities from non English-speaking countris, it indeed uses as translation, and it only refrains from it, in the cases where universities explicitly state that their official name should not be transalted into English e.

What do you expect? You claim that professors use a translation of name, but I can assure you that either and most likely these papers are old and therefore outdated for the purpose of this discussion or if after the changes much more unliekly , anyone using a translation has been admonished to use the official name.

So what? But such an argument is like arguing Stanford should translate its German motto into Latin, because Harvard does so.

TU Berlin is a different institution that decides on its name on its own and it has decided by that its name in English is "Technische Universität Berlin" or alternatively TU Berlin , but it seems that people in wikipedia are not willing to let the university decide on its own name.

Why do you let the University of Karlsruhe change its English name to Karlsruhe Institute of Technology in and you don't let TU Berlin use the name they consider appropiate as they have decided in You're going way beyond it.

It is published by The Times , which is a leading British newspaper based in London and founded in , and its website uses British spelling conventions.

So both of these leading English-language independent reliable authorities on the subject of universities and Bing use the current article title to refer to the university and some other sources use some other translated name.

The opinion of the university itself is not so relevant and now also not so clear, as it appears they have not actually publicly declared that they discourage other people from using translations.

The University of British Columbia has a partnership program with TU Berlin, and uses the current article title to describe it, as found here.

I don't see a clear indication that independent reliable English-language sources consistently differ from the current article title, and I don't see a need to keep repeating this discussion, after having the previous RM discussions of , , , and However, I suspect you will have some additional lengthy reply.

I don't have any lengthy reply. You keep obstinately repeating that is has been discussed in the past and neglecting any new development and argument.

There has been a very important change, since the university changed its English name or its policy towards its English name in , but you simply don't wanna hear it.

I'm not saying that no sources use a translation. I'm claiming that some sources use translations while others use the official name, and that in the last year lustrum there has an irrefutable momentum towards the use of the official name.

Same applies to newspapers, such as the Guardian and the Telegraph where you can see the development over time and to partner universities e.

Fact is that both, different free translations and official name are used by independent English-language sources and that a clear development towards the official name has been observed during recent years.

PS: Note that this momentum was already there in , but the discussion was closed on the basis of the arguments of SFBB talk , 21 May UTC I thought it might be nice to look somewhat more systematically for authorities on the subject of universities, so I looked at the College and university rankings article.

I confirm that QS seems to be among the reliable ones. One of the other sources listed there was Newsweek. I did not find the university in a Newsweek ranking list, but from a search on their website I found the current English name used here in and did not find any uses of the German name.

These results are all recent, were not chosen selectively to favour a preferred outcome, and generally favour retaining the current article title.

It seems as if you have despite of your claim selected 7 rankings out of a much longer list in completely ad-hoc fashion with the sole purpuse of favoring your preferred outcome.

I checked all rankings listed on that webpage all of them are in English. Furthermore, the ranking uses mostly official names and official translations.

This argument just highlights the momentum towards the change of the English name since the enacting of the new policy in This was indeed so, up until the new policy enacted in and, since then the official linkedin pag uses the name Technische Universität Berlin [27] the other is just and old profil, that has not been deleted and is no longer being actualized.

I tried to check your counting, and the count for the German form seems off by one. Are you counting "Tech Univ Berlin" as German?

To me, I think that is a very plausible abbreviation of "Technical Unversity of Berlin", so I would not count it as German nor as English. Like you, I discovered that several of the sources listed in that College and university rankings article were hard to find or did not list the university, so like you I did not use those.

These three are the ones used in the "Rankings" section of this article, and two out of the three use the current article title.

CHE was not listed in the article's list of "Global rankings", so I did not check that, and it also seems to be a German publication.

Newsweek was listed in "Global rankings" and did publish a global ranking at some point, since there is a link to it in that article, but the link is now dead.

U-Multirank was also tough to find for me; I now confirm what you said but also note that it is an affiliated government publication and that the beginning of their article says "Berlin Institute Of Technology Technische Universität Berlin is one of universities Overall, if we count only the sources listed there as "Global rankings" and do not consider "Tech Univ Berlin" as either English or German, and especially if we somewhat discount sources published in non-English-speaking countries, I think there is a majority in favour of the English-translated title over the German one.

Inst for Study of Politics - Paris; Tampere Univ of Technology; Univ of Applied Sciences Fachhochschule Aachen; Univ of London; Univ of Navarra; among many, many others , so if it would be short for Technical University of Berlin, the abbreviation would be "Tech Univ of Berlin", and ii because the ranking systematically uses official names and not translations unless offcial translation exists.

And the English Wikipedia, is an encyclopedia in English and not an encyclopedia of English-speeking countries. There is no reason to disregard a source in English which s published in English only , merely because it originates in a Spanish-speaking country.

I think that practically no one would say " U of T at Austin " or " UT at Austin " and indeed those are red links , they would typically remove the "of" and the "at".

Similarly, UPenn rather than U of Penn. It doesn't matter. It's not about how abbreaviations are generaly used in the English language, but about how the reference constructs its abbrevations.

SFBB talk , 25 May UTC I just want to summarize here the arguments in the previous discussions: - Official policy of the university: Technische Universität Berlin the policy enacted in is equivalent ot a change of name in English.

Most references older than Number of references since neglectable both variants are used. You seem to have a personal thing on this issue.

You have been voting against the use of the official name, every time this issue have been suggested in the past and while different people keep arguing for a change on different ocassions you keep pushing questionable arguments forward and trying to twist reality more on that below.

Your opinion on this issue should simply be ignored, as you've showed that you're simply moved by obstinacy and keep insisting on the discussion you "won" in the past on this issue.

Above you claimed you had selected evidence that "were not chosen selectively to favour a preferred outcome, and generally favour retaining the current article title".

I proved checking all the evidence, that this was merely a deceitful argument and that you had just selected websites using translations in ad-hoc fashion.

You keep posting handpicked evidence and trying to make it look as it would be general and you keep trying to interpret a clear declaration of the university in a completly weird way despite the fact that insiders - 3 already on this talk page - have already explained how the university interprets the policy, namely the obvious straighforward interpretation.

The policy of the university is clear and it is stated here [28] and here [29]. THE indeed uses a translation. I already showed that your claim is not true and can only consider that you keep repeating that claim after being proved untrue is plainly a lie.

I checked the rankings in College and university rankings as you claimed you had done and showed that a majority uses the official name. I agree up until Im Rahmen der Jugendarbeit können mittels digitaler Strategien Kontakt zu den Jugendlichen gehalten, kreative Formen der digitalen Kommunikation und Interaktion integriert und medienpädagogische sowie medienkünstlerische Projekte gemeinsam umgesetzt werden.

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Complicated, many dueling arguments, and few explicit sources. It is very difficult to determine the common English name for this university.

I cannot find a policy-founded consensus between the two titles and therefore we have to push it back to Technical University of Berlin , which everyone agrees is a sight better than the unfounded name, Berlin Institute of Technology.

A new move proposal, expertly crafted specifically to prove Technische Universität Berlin 's commonality over Technical University of Berlin , looks as if it might have a reasonable chance of success.

No consensus here, though. Since there are many votes for a name change in the talk-page and no new oppose comments I'd like to request a move.

Some of arguments for a move are:. I'm happy to discuss opposing votes. However, for the internal voting system do not forget to actually support this request.

Hopefully with even better arguments! Favonian talk , 22 October UTC. There is an inherent problem for democracy in three-way votes.

It's easy to devise a thought experiment in which A beats B beats C beats A in the three possible two-way contests. That's one good reason Wikipedia is not a democracy.

Andrewa talk , 13 November UTC. Perhaps I'm missing something, but very little of the above seems to relate to the policy at Wikipedia:Article titles.

The question is, what is the best English name that will be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.

Not what it should be. Questions of the accuracy of the German translation, for example, seem academic on this ground alone.

But I still prefer Technische Universität Berlin anyway. Andrewa talk , 18 November UTC. Where does "polytechnic university" come from? Are there any sources that confirm it as the usual english translation?

One can argue that since it got the right to award the doctorate in engineering? I have looked long and carefully at the non-admin close above. I'm involved so that should not be me.

It's a borderline non-admin close IMO. One of the conditions is The consensus or lack of consensus is clear after a full listing period seven days.

I don't think there's a lack of consensus above, I actually think there's a rough consensus for Technische Universität Berlin. Whether that's true or not, I don't think you can possibly say that the lack of consensus is clear , and that's part of the condition for a valid non-admin close too.

Having said that, I also think it would be far better to open a new RM rather than reopen the old one. The close makes exactly the same point I've been trying to make, that we need to focus on the relevant issues, and explicitly leaves the option of an immediate rematch open.

I still think that a valid case can be made to move to Technische Universität Berlin in terms of the name being recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.

In fact this case was quite possibly made at the second try, it's just that right from the start it was also tangled with less relevant arguments, most notably but not only the accuracy or otherwise of the translation.

Some of the arguments also seem to have suffered themselves in translation from German, and these two observations both suggest to me that it's at least possible that some contributors similarly fail to understand the details of the English Wikipedia policies and guidelines.

The English Wikipedia policies and guidelines do not necessarily correspond to the German Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Or in other words, the German Wikipedia policies and guidelines are not supposed to be translations of the English ones, nor vice versa.

Andrewa talk , 21 November UTC. Following Maderthaner's suggestion above that we seek consensus for uniform handling of all the TUs above, I think the first step is to list the affected articles.

Looking at Category:Technical universities and colleges , Category:Universities in Germany and Category:Engineering universities and colleges in Germany , I came up with:.

I may have missed some, and looking at de:Kategorie:Technische Hochschule and the other corresponding German Wikipedia category pages looks like it might yield some more too.

But I'm at a bit of a disadvantage speaking almost no German. Which of these are affected? Any others? Andrewa talk , 24 November UTC. That's a good beginning.

But that's okay, it actually emphasizes the whole problem Y - marks names which can not directly be translated to "Technische Universität XXX", so, they need special attention.

Z - marks universities that could be directly translated but since they are the only universities in the city, they should just go by "University of I believe, that every university marked with an Y has to have it's own RM.

About the Z marked ones. I don't know where I read it, but I think wikipedia rules are, that for clarity reasons, we should use "University of XXX" only.

Well, if I haven't missed one, I suggest we get startet with the guys marked by an X. I think, we should even include the already german named ones just because there will be an uniform naming after the RM.

It's all gone very quiet. Perhaps waiting for me. I haven't forgotten it, just got busy elsewhere. Andrewa talk , 10 December UTC.

The current Wikipedia invention, Technical University of Berlin, is not used by the university and it might not even be a good translation: I am a native speaker of German, but the English term "technical university" seems to refer to the university itself being technical e.

The German word "technisch" seems to be used in a slightly different way than the English word "technical", hereby also including aspects that would better be described by the English word "technological" although there is a word "technologisch" in German as well.

From what I see how the English term "technical" is used, I have my doubts that it should be used in the same way as the German word.

But: You are the native speakers, so if you believe that "technical university" makes sense If i HAD to translate it, I would write: Berlin University of Technology, hereby assuming that university en and Universität de describes just the same.

However, as I said, TU Berlin does not translate the term and their own guidelines are clear about this. I just realized that "Technical University" is not necessarily wrong in English, see for example Colorado Technical University.

It might be rare though. I am not sure if it should be "Technical University of Berlin" or maybe "Technical University, Berlin" or if the comma could maybe even be omitted in the latter suggestion.

But one of these terms would be my suggestion if I could invent a term in English. I have just modified one external link on Technical University of Berlin.

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I'm Egyptian,and I want to know how I can take a scholarship?! I'M 18 years old I'm at my final stage in school third secondary.

Hope to reply soon. I guess it is good to tell if it was a part of West Germany during before The Charlottenburg area to my knowledge was a part of West Berlin.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Judging by the supports and opposes, both variants enjoy fairly common usage and there are offsetting arguments of using English and deferring to the official name.

Overall there is no consensus to move from the current long-term title. I think as an encyclopedia we should reflect the facts and not influence reality.

I did not pay attention to this discussion and unfortunaly it was closed I am certain people will request moves over and again until the problem has been resolved.

The university is called "Technische Universität Berlin" and that's also its name in English. No translation is accepted and "Technical University of Berlin" is simply an invention by wikipedia.

Some years ago they tried with an English name namely "Berlin Institute of Technology" but after a copule of years, it was decided that no translation is acceptable and the the name in English must be also "Technische Universität Berlin" source: I'm an alumni and former teacher at the university SFBB talk , 19 May UTC.

Hence the default is to preserve the long-standing title. I've initiated an RfC on whether a different tiebreaker should be used in these cases; feel free to participate.

The university's only name is Technische Universität Berlin. And the university explicitily states both in internal and external communication that no translation into English is acceptable.

The name "Technical University of Berlin" is simply a free translation and it has never been used or accepted by the university employees are even encouraged to correct the wrong translation.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Technical University of Berlin has been listed as a level-5 vital article in Society. If you can improve it, please do.

This article has been rated as C-Class. The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page.

No further edits should be made to this section. It is not translated on the English section of their home page. Other universities keep their proper name in Wikipedia as well.

Jonathunder , 24 January UTC Discussion [ edit ] Add any additional comments I haven't looked into this particular case, but doesn't wikipedia suggest using the english translation if available?

On the other hand, a google search seems to suggest that the german name is the most popular "Technical University of Berlin" has , hits while "Technische Universität Berlin" has , hits , althought many of these seem to be in either German or be part of a mailing address.

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. This request appears to be based on the common misapprehension that official names are automatically the best article titles, ignoring the fact that official Wikipedia policy is to prefer common names.

Do English-language sources use the translated name? It's up to the supporters of this move to answer them, and until they do, there's no case for a move.

Since the use of "BIT" was for a short time official policy to use "BIT", there are of course lots of references for it.

However, google trends does not find enough data for "BIT" expanded of course , in contrast to "TU-Berlin" and its long form.

So next to no one is searching for "BIT", contradicting, for whatever it is worth, that it is a "common name".

Provide some links to the Google searches, perhaps? Andrewa talk , 3 September UTC As you wish: BIT no result TUB both forms Note also that at the website of the university, except in the impressums, there are no official pages presenting the university using BIT, contrary to what one would expect for a common international name.

The only pages where BIT is actually present are homepages of researchers and research groups, and the library. The other pages, even if displayed by google, do not contain the BIT phrase, even in the source.

Disagree that common English names would necessarily appear on official sites, official sites tend to use official names.

Your claims about the only pages I'm trying to assume good faith but it seems very like an attempt to manipulate the results to me. A naive Google search [2] finds many hits not all of them English!

I'm unable to do an international poll of how many people know that the "Berlin Institute of Technology" actually is a full university.

And I suspect that you would equally not be able to do a counterpoll to prove that the original move of this article was justified under the "common name" policy.

Of course there are lots of google hits since around "BIT" was for a short time the officially proposed translation.

But, per your own words, what the university proposes does not make an internationally known "common name".

That they stepped back from that decision can be read in the impressums, sadly not the when and why. Andrewa talk , 5 September UTC The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review.

Some of arguments for a move are: The naming tradition of the university in almost all it's publications books, papers, etc.

See this english written book. The internal handle is Technische Universität Berlin. TUB german-english guide.

The Wikipedia article itself uses most often the german writing Technische Universität Berlin. As in previous comments provided, the google search results for the german naming are much higher.

According to Wikipedia policy, the English name or English translation should be used as it is the most frequently used and recognised name within the English speaking world; regardless of what the official name is.

Any recent paper where the address of the author is given as BIT, conference announcement where the affiliation of a speaker is given as BIT?

The same arguments still apply. BIT was better than "Technical University", but was very fast abandoned without leaving much of a trace. Sources for the history of BIT or the TU9 move to "institute of technology" are scarce, to put it mildly.

I suggest that name in preference to the German form. It's in English, it abbreviates nicely as TU Berlin, and I don't find the alleged potential misinterpretation plausible.

Please see Talk:Technical University of Berlin. The result on 25 January was " don't move ". The later move in March moved only the article page without moving the Talk page, and seems to have been an undiscussed move.

I've to agree, 'Technical University' is the common mis-? I'm not fluent in German by any means, but the translation appears literal and correct.

Perhaps it doesn't capture a nuance present in German, but I don't think that makes it a mistranslation. There was a reason that the TU9 acted against "Technical University", but I don't find it documented anywhere.

Could one misunderstand it as "it is a burocratic technicality that it is an university"? There are lots of "false friends" that make english difficult for germans.

Saying to a waiter "Ich bekomme ein Steak. In ictu oculi talk , 9 October UTC Note : I don't think, that a plain google search hit number can estimate the most common usage.

Just think of all the scientific papers, which are read and cited with the german full naming. Also, old paper's and books may not be digitalized.

Support per nom. The German name is the most commonly seen. We do not translate everything just for the sake of it.

Google trends allows to compare search terms, for the proposed names it results in this. Current name Berlin Institute of Technology has nothing to recommend it.

Andrewa talk , 13 November UTC Then let's make a summary: This article was created in march , probably as "Technische Universität" only visible in the history of the redirect , a stub that uses "technical university" in the text, and was first moved shortly after creation , 26 August Sandman to "Technical University".

The second move in , 4 March Mootros, with quite a history of compulsive, undiscussed moves to BIT violated several principles.

It was not discussed. It did not move the talk page. It went against a prior consens in that "technical university" is the common name. All still visible on the old talk page.

Is this enough to qualify as "move in bad faith"? On Google results, I would think that their summary in "trends" of actual search terms would give the most information on what name is common.

However, the location information given puts all searches inside Germany, but here we are looking for usage outside Germany.

In scientific papers the occurrences will be affiliations and addresses of authors, hardly evidence of common usage outside Germany.

My only concern is to make BIT into the side note that it actually is. It was a nice idea at the time it was invented, did not catch on and probably also diminished the long established brand of "TU-Berlin".

I was surprised at the small role that "technical university" has in the google trend pictures, so please take that into account when deciding on moving the article.

All of them prefer the german variant, also, in the international context. If you look around the other TU wiki articles you'll find the german writing already.

That being said, even on wikipedia the german variant is accepted as common name. Only the TU-Berlin article community is having a hard time realizing that So it has to be an admin that has to do the move, and in the event of a move back to "technical university", also the merging of the talk pages.

As you can see, Andrewa an admin changed his opinion from 3 years ago, but is unsure of the correct decision.

And as I tried to document, there is no correct decision based on "common name in the english speaking world", the majority of the cited google hits can be suspected to originate in Germany, mostly in publications by members of the TU-Berlin, creating a hard-to-untangle bias.

There is a history of using "technical university", but no indication on actual current usage. Both of them, on both their web search and maps pages, brought up "Technical University of Berlin" or "Technical University Berlin" as headlines on the right-hand side of the page and as map location identifiers.

What does the google-trend picture show from your location? Any search locations outside Germany? However, people that search for TU Berlin mainly come from germany.

My opinion remains that no case was made for the earlier move, but that a case has been made now and perhaps that's because important things have changed in the past three years, or perhaps it's just that the research has been more thorough this time, n'import.

I also believe that Technische Universität Berlin is the best target, but that failing that Technical University of Berlin would be an improvement on the current name.

How you can get unsure out of that escapes me. And yes, I'm an admin, but not an uninvolved one so I won't be closing this RM anyway.

There are several others watching WP:RM, fortunately. Or being clumsy in my summary of your point of view. You did change your opinion from "no point in moving" to "moving is appropriate".

And as with anybody else, there is no clear direction if the german or the english name is the better target. The recent discussion just has more participants, the arguments against BIT are the same as in and even in But I'm also asking myself, what does any of it matter?

The relevant thing is just, on the evidence now before us, what's the best article title? Let's focus on that. We seem to have consensus above that the article should be moved somewhere, and I think we have a rough consensus on the destination too.

The question of non-admin closure which you raised above is similarly irrelevant. This is sufficiently controversial to require admin closure even if there were no protection in place.

As I see it, the argument pro "technical" is the historical precedent and one sighting on google-maps there surely are others, only hard to find for me due to the helpfulness of google.

The argument pro "technische" is the recent consensus on re naming of some of the other "Technische Universitäten" here on en-wiki and the official corporate image of the TU-Berlin.

Now, we all agree that this move to BIT was a bad call anyways. So, we should not run in circles here. I also have the feeling, that the wikipedia naming affects the common use, e.

This may lead to more and more wrong translations and namings. Choosing "Technische Universität Berlin" is in many ways a good idea!

It is a the official proper and correct naming. Arguably, it is the most often english used name. Since there are no other problems with the german variant, I really think we may have a naming candidate for a long-lasting wiki article name.

I only suspected and always asked for confirmation if it was a bad translation, but it took a long time for the first competent refutation.

MIT and CalTech were given ans examples that "institute of technology" is a valid name for a full university, with the problem remaining that it has no tradition in Germany outside Karlsruhe and an "Institut" usually is a part of a faculty, i.

There no longer are "Fachhochschulen", for some reason they dropped the "Fach". If someone wants to convey a lesser level of scholarship or less complete breadth of education, they would use the phrase "Technical College" or "Technical School" rather than "Technical University".

Anything called a "university" is generally understood to have a complete educational program and a high degree of scholarly status.

To me, the term "Technical University" simply implies a scholarly university that focuses particularly on technology.

Google and Bing both translate "Technische" as "Technical". It lays the most weight on a uni-form wikipedia naming.

It also says, that we should respect the official english naming claim of the university. The link also refers to technical but since a technical university is a german thing as far as I know there is no way of having a uniform naming while using "technical" OR "technische".

Being stuck between technische and technical again, I would weight the official naming claim as the most important reason to go for the german variant, since we're also stuck arguing what is the most common english name.

I also think that, everybody and I mean everybody who reads "Technische Universität Berlin" does know about which university in the world we're talking about.

Not because it's such a famous university but because it's straight forward to figure it out. It's not linked to from WP:AT as it should be if it were in force.

And it's rather strangely phrased, quite out of step with other Wikipedia naming conventions. It needs both work and discussion before it will be of any use to us here, IMO.

Andrewa talk , 19 November UTC If the translation of technische to technical is correct, I have to quote this though: "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.

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